This engineer will have nasty shock when he meets European economic area warranty laws. He claims: “ WARRANTY? RETURNS?
30-day warranty from the moment you receive the part. I am not responsible if you break something while installing the part.
No returns”
He must provide 2 years warranty selling to regular consumers. That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe. That’s why every 20€ BOM gadget has a retail price of 99€.
> That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe. That’s why every 20€ BOM gadget has a retail price of 99€.
I dunno, "2 year warranty kills our business model" sounds a lot like "we are selling gadgets to go directly to a landfill".
I imagine the bigger thing is on a macro level there's just less free money floating around in Europe to fund things with terrible unit economics. 2 years is of course a very long time, but you combine that with how many people would actually take advantage of that and... well, the defect rate, and I feel like you can make that work.
EDIT: And to be even more glib, if your thing costs 20 euros to make, make 1 for the "warranty stockpile" for every 1 that goes out to customers. Warranty claim? Send out from the warranty stockpile.
How is 2 years a very long time for an electronic device? Most larger electronics (washing machines, dishwashers, fridges,...) have a 5 year warranty by default here, also many cars do.
Alternatively, you can design your units to be easily repairable so you can stockpile spare parts, and do proper testing to reduce the amount of products that fail in the first place.
The problem is that virtually anonymous sellers and dropshippers on Alibaba and Amazon can and will undercut the pricing that is required to support that kind of infrastructure and development - and I'm not sure what the correct way is to prevent that, while still allowing start-ups and small shops to sell stuff in the EU.
Maybe an idea would be to make exemptions for small scale runs - think of something like a combination of:
- below 1000 units sold in total for a company over all its lineup
- at least the development work of the product must be domestic in origin (i.e. the company must be domiciled in the EU and at least 50% of the development work must be done by that company - that leaves startups free to hire overseas talent, but prohibits dropshipping China crap or production of pre-existing designs)
- handling warranty claims must be done in the EU, with a requirement of "repair first" to incentivize feedback into product development.
I was being glib, offering it as a way out of the supposedly unsolvable problem. The real thing is to calibrate based on return rates etc, and of course if your devices can _just be fixed_ that’s great.
EU law defines that the consumer is given a minimum 2-year guarantee as a protection against faulty goods, or goods that don't look or work as advertised when buying a product from a trader in the EU (incl. Norway and Iceland).
The application of this is a bit more complex, as the definition of a "faulty good" is a product that failed due to flaw in its design ("defects presumed to have existed at the time of delivery"), and after the first year YOU as the consumer have to prove that this fault existed when the goods were delivered.
Moreover, legally this guarantee has to be given by the *trader* selling the product to you, not even the manufacturer of the prouct.
If you import the component from outside the EU the law doesn't even apply, as you have formed a contract with a trader not bound by this law.
But in this case it's all irrelevant because the item sold is basically a spare-part, not a consumer end-product. For spare-parts and components that legal guarantee for consumers doesn't apply.
> and after the first year YOU as the consumer have to prove that this fault existed when the goods were delivered.
You have to make it probable, which is very different from proving. A rule favoring consumers, something like "there isn't an excess of scratches" is sufficient in most cases, where the alternative would require an excessive cost in further analysis (read: all electronics).
> If you import the component from outside the EU the law doesn't even apply, as you have formed a contract with a trader not bound by this law.
The seller is advertising _and_ shipping his product to the EU, therefor he is bound by its laws. He even features specific advise to EU consumers.
> But in this case it's all irrelevant because the item sold is basically a spare-part
This is just nonsense. It's sold direct to consumers, it's a consumer product.
> If you import the component from outside the EU the law doesn't even apply, as you have formed a contract with a trader not bound by this law.
The seller is advertising _and_ shipping his product to the EU, therefor he is bound by its laws. He even features specific advise to EU consumers.
This is interesting, and I think is similar to the GDPR. Do you think he could get extradited for not following EU law, assuming he is being compliant with the laws of his own country?
I would think that any punishment would be limited to if he enters the EU, or has assets there. Or perhaps blocking his website, or any shipments from him. Is there anyone around with actual experience in these kinds of laws?
Extradition is only for criminal offenses, not civil ones.
The EU can prosecute Americans to their hearts content. They are limited only by their ability to collect judgment. The US will not collect foreign judgements except as specified by treaty. There are no treaties for enforcing GDPR fines in the US.
So if you or your company has property in the EU they can sieze it. But if you never go to the EU or own anything there you can rest assured that you are quite safe from GDPR fines.
"That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe"
The big players fought this law tooth and nail because they didn't want to guarantee their devices for that long. They definitely did not want this and did not use this an opportunity to "kill hardware startups in Europe".
In fact Apple initially refused to offer the 2 year warranty[1]
Like GDPR if can be the case that big players don’t want a regulation to pass and if it does pass it still disproportionately hurts smaller companies with less payroll.
Anything that hurts small players more than big players is cheered by those big players, we have seen this countless times with any big tech company. Heck, they even actively push for it, with 'think of the children' for simpler audience
Fun fact: Apple still doesn't provide two years of warranty in the EU, unless you PAY for it via an Apple Care extension.
EDIT: Weird how this gets downvoted. Let me quote for example from Apple Germany's webpage [1]:
"The limited Apple warranty covers your iPhone for 1 year from the date of purchase against faults due to the design and manufacturing of the product [..]
Depending on the problem you might be covered via AppleCare+"
You missed a relevant part which apple tries to hide:
> Die Garantie gilt zusätzlich zu den durch Verbraucherschutzgesetze gewährten Rechten.
"The warranty is in addition to your legal rights."
It's a bit sneaky: Apple makes it sound as if you're only covered by Apples warranty, but those are different things: Apple provides a separate warranty on top of your legal rights and it may cover slightly different things. You still retain all of your legal rights.
There's a catch with the 2 year warranty by law though: It only covers defects that were present in the device when it was purchased - either manufacturing or design. In the first 12 month, the default assumption is that the device was broken when purchased and the burden of proving otherwise is on the vendor. For month 12-24, the burden of proving that a device was defect at the time of purchase is on the buyer. In practice, this means that for most cases, even the legal warranty is limited to 12 month, because that proof is hard in most cases.
It's important to note that AppleCare is Apple's manufacturer warranty, which doesn't have to be 2 years. The counter-party for the 2 year warranty in EU consumer law is the seller, which might or might not be Apple (e.g. if you buy your device from Amazon or your carrier).
> "The warranty is in addition to your legal rights."
Yeah, I didn't miss that part. The fact that their warranty doesn't replace the legal consumer protection rights is not a concession in any way.
For the 2-year guarantee defined by EU-law (which you described very well) they brush you off to the trader who sold you the item as this is the liable party by law.
In case of other manufacturers, the trader (i.e. a mobile carrier) didn't accept such conditions and required the manufacturer to provide a warranty covering the full 2 years in order to sell his goods. So the 2 years of legal guarantee became 2 years of warranty. In case of Apple this extension didn't happen, instead a joint business of selling insurance for the second year was created.
So if your device-fault would be covered and you didn't buy insurance, the trader is double-incentivized to NOT support you in the second year (you should learn to have bought insurance AND he can't forward the claim to Apple).
A trader like a mobile carrier or Apple itself keeps pushing consumers back for years and only settles when a lawsuit is raised and actually moves to court (as they want to avoid a ruling, and the issue goes away with just ~1000EUR).
Source: I worked in that space when the EU extended from 1 to 2 years. And my Spouse works in a Consumer Protection Agency (particularly the iPhone 5c is a legend in those realms...)
It's pretty clear from the page what exactly the service is. Right below the top, "Angebote Services" ("Offered services") include battery service and display repair. Both of which are not usually part of consumer rights warranty, even if they occur within the 2 years. And then a bit below it includes information about covering any accidental damage.
I don't think anyone in Germany would misunderstand. Warranty is known so well here, most electronics stores try to upsell you on a warranty extension provided by a third party insurance company.
Yeah, they like to hide this, but well know that they are required to provide warranty. One of my iPhones had discoloration around the screen edges and I bought it more than a year ago. They repaired it no questions asked.
I think in such cases the 'burden of proof' is fairly light. There is no easy way I could have caused the discoloring, except if the phone became wet (this was before iPhones were water resistant) and they could easily see this with the water indicator strip.
It’s the same in Australia with their laptops. They make it sound like they’re only covered for a year and you need to pay to upgrade, but consumer law protects you for two.
Australian consumer law is extremely complex from what I have seen. The law says something vague like "works for a reasonably expected time" while everyone reads this as 12 months.
They extended the 12 moth limit last year. I don't recall if the new one is 2 or 3 years, bur it was a substantial extension for the benefit of the consumer.
The EU-law applies to the seller, not the manufacturer.
And only for "defects presumed to have existed at the time of delivery", for which the burden of proof is on the seller in Year1 and on the buyer in Year2.
Year1 is usually covered also by the manufacturer warranty, so the seller doesn't have to prove anything and just forwards the buyers' claim to the manufacturer as warranty-repair.
If Year2 is not covered by the manufacturer, the seller needs to cover the cost. If Apple is not the seller, this regularly opens a journey of pain for the consumer (especially if the seller was also in the business of selling insurance and the buyer didn't buy any --> "he's gotta learn to buy insurance for his iPhone")
Apple actually goes to the trouble to explain what your consumer rights are. Here's the page in the UK that explains that according to English law the contract of sale lasts 6 years:
This is actually required by the same EU-law, Directive 1999/44/EC Article 6.
They need to do this for all EU countries, in the local language.
Not sure what the UK law covers under this "consumer law". But that coverage-gap is huge, so I imagine it's particularly in the interest of Apple to define the route of action for the consumer, as they only provide 1 year of warranty as a manufacturer but the SELLER (!) has to provide 6 years of protection.
Side-note: I see the page repeatedly refers to footnote "2" for the seller, which I cannot find on the page. Would be interesting to know what they meant to say here...
I mistated in my original comment, this page is not to do with UK or EU consumer law, they are explaining your rights established by UK contract law which are hundreds of years old. Any purchase of anything from a haircut to an airport building is covered by this basic law because whenever you buy anything in the UK a contract is created, regardless of wether you signed anything or not and this contract gives you certain rights in law one of which is that the thing or service you paid for should do what was advertised.
Most retailers don't go to the trouble to explain to their customers that they are also liable for the faulty design or manufacture of the products they are selling for up to six years under simple contract law on their websites, at most they typically say something like 'this product is covered by a warranty and this warranty does not affect your statutory rights', you would then need to go away and research what these rights actually are.
There are loads of independent folk selling stuff like this in the EU just fine. In fact the modding community in the EU is massive.
The reason they’re fine is because this is a really niche audience who generally know what they’re doing. The few occasions things do go wrong, it’s almost always the fault of the person the bought it, and we accept that.
Those that do want something like this and who isn’t a hacker themselves would go via a 3rd party to mod it, usually paying them too (That scene is also massive in the EU).
The very few times I’ve had to return something has been simple enough. Full refund for an item that is either dead on arrival or they person just sent out the wrong item accidentally. Either way, we are talking same week rather than 2 years later.
Do you perhaps have a few pointers to discover the modding communities here? I am only aware of the mechanical keyboard community. (I'm in the Netherlands.)
They’re often desperate communities based around specific hardware. Like the Amstrad CPC, BBC Micro, Atari ST or other retro computers. Plenty in retro consoles too.
I’ve not found a single forum where people lurk but rather independent message boards. I believe there’s a few Facebook Groups, possibly Redit too, but I don’t personally use Facebook nor Redit. You generally find them when looking to do something interesting on a specific device.
However if anyone knows of a more centralised place then I’d be interest to know too.
>>He must provide 2 years warranty selling to regular consumers.
It's a myth that dominates the internet on some reason. There is no such EU-wide law, never was(although some individual member states do mandate that).
The EU law that does exist is that the seller is responsible for the item they sold, for electronics item the period of time is actually 6 years, but the seller must cover manufacturing defects. But here's the kicker - in case of a fault appearing within the first 6 months, it's presumed to be a manufacturing defect and the seller has to replace/repair the item, but any fault after 6 months you(the buyer) has to prove that the fault happened due to a manufacturing defect. If your laptop randomly dies after a year the seller is not under any legal obligation to fix it, unless you can prove it died because of a manufacturing problem.
So no, there is no 2 year warranty in EU the way many people expect the warranty to work. There isn't, and what is there is not the same as a warranty.
upvoted, but the consumer product guarantee is 2 years [1]
(not 6 years. You may refer to the guarantee of offering (paid) repair, which is 7 years for a while now).
And when the consumer product guarantee was extended from 1 year to 2 years, the reversal of the burden of proof moved from 6 months to 1 year.
So for the first year the trader has to prove that the fault didn't exist at the time of delivery, which he fowards to the manufacturer who solves it by simply repairing the product based on the warranty he provides.
After the first year, the burden of proof moves to the buyer, now he has to prove to the trader that the fault already existed at purchase. If the manufacturer provides 2 years of warranty nothing changes compared to above, but if he doesn't you'll be left discussing with the trader (from experience: good luck!)
Huh, I swear it was only 6 months until relatively recently, but you're right - now the presumption of manufacturing defect is in fact 12 months. Thank you!
I meanwhile learnt that 6 years is the consumer protection period of UK with proof of burden reversing after 6 months, which may be the one you were referring to.
EU-law should have unified the first 2 years across the whole union in ~2011, with local law only applicable on top of it.
Not sure what the overall coverage of that UK-law is though, it seems that the seller is not bound by it "if the (fault) has its origin in materials supplied by the consumer", which seems to give some wiggle-room in the sense of "you're holding it wrong" or "the paint hardly came off by itself"...
AFAIK, In the UK you usually have 6 years to file a claim for a defect in a product, though the product has to be fit for purpose and last for whatever a 'reasonable' lifespan for that product is.
e.g. most people would expect a car or a sofa to last for 3 years with normal servicing per the manufacturer's guidelines, so you could claim against the vendor if something broke during normal, though you may not expect a plastic fork used every day to last as long. This can be overridden somewhat by the users manual / marketing materials - like if you sold something as 'temporary' or 'disposable'.
If you serviced your car using the wrong fluids or parts that do not meet standards (like cheap eBay spark plugs or reclaimed oil full of metal filings or something) then the vendor may be able to claim that the parts had caused the issue rather than them, if it were a reasonable claim to make.
If I were him, I'd be more worried about selling the pre-modified Pro. Especially if it's being shipped internationally, there's a fair chance Apple asks U.S. customs to seize these de-facto knockoffs. And calling it 41rP0d$ / M4g$4f3 isn't going to get past anyone.
Isn't this basically the same as selling hacked and refilled printer ink cartridges? The Supreme Court ruled against Lexmark in that case (as far as the patents are concerned, not sure if Lexmark also tried the trademark route).
> That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe.
That sounds like something the big players want you to believe because they're butthurt about being made to produce decent quality products instead of landfill.
And there's still a lot of landfill being sold in Europe; legally they're required to honor warranty requests, but in practice this shit is so cheap that the store front just gives people a replacement device or a refund (in store credit); the products get bundled up and either just discarded outright or returned to the supplier / importer, where I guess some money trades hands.
But there will be no attempts at repair, it's just not worth it.
Switzerland is complicated. They are not in the EU, but closely aligned and essentially bound to many of the EU rules and regulations via agreements. Whether that applies for warranty or not is not something I know, but it’s definitely possible.
> they are in Schengen and the free trade area so basically in the EU for the most part
That’s a large leap. It’s not in the EEA but is in the EFTA, so even fewer EU regulations apply than in Norway, for instance. Furthermore, the EU is a much larger political entity with its own parliament and other institutions, as I’m sure you’re aware, and these don’t have direct jurisdiction over most aspects of Swiss law as they would for EU member nations. It’s a more straightforward process for Switzerland to nullify its bilateral agreements (as is threatened seemingly every few years) than for something like Brexit.
You are of course correct that they could at any point in time decide to cancel the contracts and it's part of the political game to threaten to do so every few years.
In practice they have few alternatives given their location as a land locked nation without the ability to feed their population without imports. All trade flows through or over territory of EU member states.
Tight CH-EU cooperation has been very beneficial for both sides and most of what we see is the usual political bickering.
> even fewer EU regulations apply than in Norway, for instance
Automatically, but many if not most commercial regulations get incorporated, in this case the warranty legislation also dictates 2 years
> than for something like Brexit
I would say the difference lies more in the renegotiation than in the cutting. EU membership doesn't get renegotiated often, while treaties between EU/CH are expected to be renegotiated (although that has a whole host of challenges and doesn't happen nearly as often as you'd expect)
But nullification is a similar impact and a similar process as brexit because most of these negotiations had a guillotine clause which tied them toghether
Brexit was a remarkably straightforward process, you send a letter and at the latest two years later you're out if you don't ask for exception
It was the headless chicken phase when the UK was trying to negotiate without having an internal consensus on what they wanted that was convoluted
Switzerland has this weird relationship with the EEA where they want to be able to export easily so they align their laws but don't want to be a member so they have no say on what is done.
> Brexit was a remarkably straightforward process, you send a letter and at the latest two years later you're out if you don't ask for exception
Straightforward is a bit of a stretch.
Brexit was convoluted because the UK is in a weird position where it had a ton of agreements regarding its border with France which had not been negotiated for a long time as they didn't matter when they were part of the EU and they wanted things which were not compatible with the Good Friday agreement. As far as I know, this part is still not settled.
Yeah, but that's not the "exit" part, that's life as a third country part
By the way, it was the border with Ireland that created issues, not the one with France
It was an admittedly "um actually"-adjacent comment, but I think still justified because Switzerland would have the exact same issues if they just renounced their treaties with the EU so they'd need to undergo as complex a negotiation as the UK had to
I think the absence of an Ireland situation for Switzerland is meaningful, here. There isn't a preexisting open border agreement that Switzerland is obligated to uphold by both the EU and the US, which the Good Friday Agreement is for the UK. That open border agreement also seems to go further than the Schengen agreement in practice considering Switzerland already has regular (but not universal) customs checks due to its ex-EEA status, not to mention other Schengen member nations such as Denmark which have at times maintained consistent immigration checks.
> By the way, it was the border with Ireland that created issues, not the one with France
As a French, let me tell you there were and still are plenty of issues with France too notably regarding fishing rights and border control. France didn't threaten to turn off electricity to some of the Channel islands because everything was fine.
There were issues with France due to them leaving and the way they chose to, but the issues with the Irish border were constraining the way they could leave (to some level)
The UK could choose to leave and cut off all agreements concerning fishing rights, the tunnel, the border checks with france and it'd have been perfectly legal, if diplomatically damaging
With the Irish border there was/is the complication of the GFA, which prevented the same kind of approach
Its limited free trade. Ie you have hard limits on imports per person, ie 1kg of meat, and when crossing you either pay officially hefty import tax on top of 8% swiss vat (which together easily doubles the price) or you are smuggling, and get hefty fine if caught. And they do check frequently on the borders. Inner EU borders see 0 checks (apart from covid era, for covid reasons only) and I am pretty sure you can carry between states much more.
That doesn't say anything about warranty, I am 95% sure that it generally works cross borders both ways, ie a lot of Swiss folks order form German amazon and don't worry about return policies. I bought ski touring set from Austrian eshop more than decade ago, found out the boots were slightly too large and exchanged them for smaller, all via post, no imports or other extra fees paid. The shop supported this all explicitly, but its just a bit more paperwork on their side so bigger ones are happy to get your money.
I mean as a company trying to raise finance to expand after selling widgets for a year - banks consider the risk that the first year of sales could be returned, bankrupting the company, and charge far higher rates.
It's supposed to force a minimum level of designed longevity - you also get Chinese companies selling on Amazon using random-string company names. They seem to just spin up a new company and kill the liabilities; this continuing to make electronics that go very quickly to landfill.
You should know, but its hard to impossible to know for sure. Apple couldn't even predict antenna-gate, and Samsung couldn't predict their exploding phones.
Yes, you should know generally how its engineered and designed, but until someone is holding the device, you can't be certain, the same way that a white-board design of an API doesn't have bugs like the implemented one. Companies build the product, then subject it to tests to simulate wear and usage, but sometimes the tests don't accurately reflect how people actually use it (see antenna-gate) or similar issues.
> Apple couldn't even predict antenna-gate, and Samsung couldn't predict their exploding phones.
These are exceptions and of course they couldn't be predicted because if they could they never would have shipped.
The problem isn't a once-in-a-product-line huge design failure, the problem is that there is currently a race to the bottom in consumer electronics.
When faced with a $25 coffee grinder and a $15 coffee grinder people choose the $15 coffee grinder. However the $15 coffee grinder is made using cheap plastic gearing that the engineers know will fail within a year or two of normal use.
This is not that complicated -- engineers aren't stupid and materials science is incredibly mature.
And most of the $25 ones are also crap, because someone figured out folks will buy the more expensive one since "it must be better" & started filling that market with junk.
I agree, but the thing about having to honor the warranty even in the case of consumer misuse would inflate prices. (I don't know if EU warranty law actually works like that, I'm just going off the previous comment.)
Nope, if you can prove it was due to customer misuse you don't have to cover it.
So a eg. broken screen is still a customers problem, unless they somehow manage to prove in court that the screens were shitty and break under what would be presumed "normal use". That's why there are basically no ads showing stuff like "survives falls from 10 meters high" here.
There's a big difference between tech being able to last 1.5 years and being guaranteed to last 1.5 years. The latter costs more upfront to smaller players, even if the quality of the tech is otherwise identical.
They only have to last that long under intended use, which is why manuals go into some lengths to tell you how you're supposed to use it (don't use the blender when wet, only use it a couple minutes at a time, etc). And if you engineer your product to last 2.5 years under those conditions, only a small fraction will break before the 2 year threshold, and of those only a small fraction of those will lead to actual warranty claims (unless it happens early in the product's life)
Is this really how big players killed hardware startups in Europe? Sincerely asking because I live in Europe now and don't know the background. I always wonder how much this causes EU electronics prices to be higher than the States.
It's bullshit. Source: I'm employed by a hardware startup in Europe, specifically one selling similar types of DIY hardware.
Most of our products are kits requiring soldering, and by far the most common cause of failure is user assembly errors. We offer great support trying to assist the customer in fixing any errors, but it is still the customer's fault if they really screw it up - which rarely happens.
All non-trivial parts are 100% tested in the factory, and we explicitly instruct the customer to verify they function before installation. Defects do still happen, but are not very common. We'll just send a replacement without any fuss, because we budgeted for that.
I do not believe long-term warranty requests have ever happened at our company.
Most of that price difference tends to be the higher (and included in the price) national VAT compared to US state/local sales taxes which aren’t typically included.
Yup but not Switzerland, where the VAT is 7.7%. Prices are still higher there. Something like 10-20% for Apple products, which I mention because this article is about Apple products.
Yep, also wages are higher there so there is a higher cost of running stores there. This is especially visible in stuff requiring manual work (eg. premade sandwiches in a store).
On the other hand, everyone I know from switzerland goes (usually) to germany to shop there, and our balkan "gastarbaiters" go home, and do "everything" here (dentist, haircuts,...).
> everyone I know from switzerland goes (usually) to germany to shop there
This is common in border cities such as Basel, but seems relatively unusual in my experience for people living in Zurich, Bern, etc. It's often not worth the extra few hours of travel from these cities on top of potential customs formalities.
> That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe.
Sorry but if your quality process doesn't allow you to guarantee that what you sell will still work in a measly two years, you have no business selling it the first place.
e.g. there is a lottery for all electronics goods traders where if you get drawn you have to pay for a dumpster for recycling which can net you bills up to 10k€
I think I will buy my first iPhone when they move to USB-C. I bought my first iPad when the Air model started using USB-C.
Please keep "MagSafe" (I believe the iPhone variant is now becoming the standard for Qi 2) on the phones and MacBooks. This is a propriety technology that is worth it (unless there is a future USB-C MagSafe standard?)
This seems like a really petty reason to not buy a phone in the grand scheme of things, but having everything on the one cable/standard (despite the internal protocol/capabilities of each device being all over the place) brings me a small amount of joy.
> I think I will buy my first iPhone when they move to USB-C.
I bought my first iPhone (13 mini) last year and you're 100% right to feel this way. Having one special cord for this one stupid device is awful. We should throw a worldwide celebration once Lightning is 6 feet under and we can all finally just use one damn cord for everything.
Lightning has always been in this weird place, and it tracks that it'll likely end in a weird place.
- it was badly needed when it was introduced, because the 30-pin connector was massive and came with a bunch of trade-offs around water ingress
- the prevailing standard at the time, micro-USB, was both a poor user experience (directional connector without enough to distinguish up from down) and had reliability issues (the clips on the connector would wear with time), two issues Lightning solved several years before USB-C was available on the market
But since Apple took a bunch of blow-back from users on changing from the 30-pin connector ecosystem, they promised that Lightning would last at least a decade (whether that choice helped or hurt electronic waste, I'm not sure). So even though USB-C has been at a good point for consumer adoption for 3-4 years, Apple has drug their feet. I think they'll be switching to USB-C with the next phone redesign, regardless of what the EU may regulate, just because it's "good enough" relative to Lightning (my only issue is that the device side of USB-C has a "tongue" that can break off, while that task is on the more-easily-replaceable cable side for Lightning).
Yeah, people forget history when it comes to things like this for some reason.
Tesla's charging connector is another example. At the time, there was no universal standard (even today the standards body is a mess, do we use CHAdeMo, CCS1, CCS2...??). People like to throw shade for a "proprietary connector" but at the time it was the best option.
On the other hand, the lightning socket has the springs which fill up with dust and detritus and are a nightmare to keep clean with accidentally bending them.
I think USB-C did the right thing, putting the conductors on the expensive part and the spring contracts on the cheap part.
> if they'd opened the standard it would have been adopted as "the new USB"
That isn't self-evident as true. Tesla opened the patents to their charging connector but I don't think anyone's used it, they're still using goofy CHAdeMO and CCS and whatever else.
Tesla, in 2012, wasn't an incumbent automaker with any sway over anything. Also, the original "openness" of the tesla patents is debatable.
Apple was core to the success of the original USB; they were the first to adopt it as the only accessory interface on their mass market computers 1998 imac. They've worked with other major players for the past several decades, making standards like firewire, thunderbolt, and USB. Apple was and is a major player in the standards bodies.
I currently have an 11 Pro and it is annoying. If we do get a USB-C iPhone this year I intend to upgrade. Pretty much the only reason I haven’t bought AirPods is that they use lightning, and I don’t want them to end up being the only device I have with it.
Any that are of quality? All the ones I've tried stopped working within a few months. Which is odd, as all my normal cables keep working for years. (Including the standard Apple/Samsung ones that came with my phones. Except for my S8 USB-C cable)
Apple has used the same term to describe the magnetically attached charger to both the iPhone and the iPad. They’re not the same though.
Anyway, I don’t think you need to worry on the phone front. Apple released their tech for everyone to use, so all phones will use the MagSafe charging.
Lightning was what Apple standardized on when the world was still using dock connectors with completely incompatible pinouts and wire protocols. The fact that Apple pushed a usb compatible wire protocol (instead of, say, firewire?) in the first place is the opposite of user-hostile.
If Apple had changed its connector in any way in the last decade, people would have similarly complained that they are changing in order to sell more chargers and cables. Neither one of these arguments is very compelling to me but seems to keep coming up.
The iPod was originally designed to be connected via FireWire only. It took an incredible amount of internal pressure to get Steve Jobs to relent and allow USB.
The iPod only went USB once USB 2.0 was widely deployed (the spec was ratified in 2001, the first USB iPod was 2003). USB 1.0/1.1 (1.5/12Mbps) were not fast enough for the 5GB-20GB drives of the day, especially compared to the prevailing FireWire standard (400Mbps).
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply are unaware of the physical realities (re: limitations) of micro USB and not actively trying to mislead but here’s a real anecdote from someone who routinely repaired micro USB and lightning devices:
Micro USB ports failed considerably faster and more often than lightning. Easily by a margin of 100:1. the design of the “cage” that held the male connector would wear out, the thin center plastic would break, etc. Micro USB was and still is complete garbage.
Apple engineers knew this and thankfully put in the effort to make something better.
The rest of the industry was still trying to pull their head out of their ass and apple had this awesome durable new connector. That’s what really happened.
Now, years later people like you have either forgotten or I guess maybe never saw the comparison up close for prolonged periods but it tires me to see this careless and ignorant argument brought up time and time again.
My experience with lightning cables has been that they frequently get scorched on one of the pins so that the cable becomes one-sided, the female side frequently fills with lint and slowly causes mismating, and they often claim to be waterlogged because, I guess, it's humid outside of California.
It's difficult to buy lightning-compatible devices because Apple incentivizes knockoffs instead of authentic parts. Even if you wanted to buy from a reputable brand like Apple, Anker or Belkin, they might not have the type of product you need.
On the other hand USB-C is designed to exclude water and is better at lint exclusion, never seems to arc, and is a real standard that has many suppliers of quality interfaces.
It’s the only connector I’ve had fail multiple times. I replaced the port on a friend’s camera as well. On the other hand, I have lightning ports and cables pushing 5 years of regular use.
For some reason it never occurred to me that these connectors were so awful until very recently when I had one fail on a brand new micro controller. Unfortunately it’s still a super common connector in that space.
USB-C isn't making me very enthusiastic either. Both of them suck. It would rock to get lightning on there lol.
I've been using magnetic ones to prevent my ports from wearing out and if anyone preaches about safety or standards I don't care. It's what I'm forced to do, and now my data rates are slow but at least my port will work next time.
Ever seen a frayed lighting cable? In my whole life, from all Apple people I know, I've seen only those, in various stages of decomposition. Do I see white cable breaking apart? No need to check connector, I know its apple's. For the price of 5-10 USB ones that keep working much much longer.
Since we are comparing personal anecdotes I never had a single USB port fail me in 20 years, be it mini, micro, usbc. But I don't treat my electronics like garbage, that usually helps a bit.
This was due to a particular material they were using that was more environmentally friendly, if I recall correctly. It wasn't just lightning cables, pretty much all of Apple's cables from that time were susceptible. It's not an issue with whatever they're currently using, though.
Regardless, the material of the rubber they're using the wrap the cable has absolutely nothing to do with the lightning connector.
Yes. Apple engineers played a significant role in developing USB-C.
Of the 79 engineers who worked on the original spec, 18 of them were from Apple. Intel had 24, JAE had 21, TI had 12 https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec-pdf
Original Thunderbolt was by Intel, then Apple came up with how to use it with MiniDP connector. There definitely was more collaboration, but as a simple overview this works.
In 2019 Intel donated the spec royalty free to USB-IF
iPhones have an ecosystem around lighting, cables docks devices etc, to change that would cause users to be far more upset then having a different cable then other devices, see the outrage when they switched to lightning in the first place
There isn’t as much an ecosystem of lightning devices for macs as it was usb a. I assume iPads also had less. Dunno about AirPods thou
I assume they saw the writing on the wall and figured they would wait till the eu forced usb c so users will
Blame them
Not apple for the switch
> see the outrage when they switched to lightning in the first place
Yeah, Apple have changed their preferred physical connector for phones and peripherals once in the last 16 years, from the 30 pin connector to Lightning. When they did that, there was outrage that they were obsoleting all the devices that used the 30 pin connector because of “planned obsolescence”.
Meanwhile, Android phones have gone from ExtUSB to mini-USB, to micro-USB, to USB-C in the same timeframe with all the accompanying adapter / cable / accessory churn. If Apple had changed to USB-C while Android vendors were still mostly using micro-USB, there would have been a repeat of the outrage about “planned obsolescence” again as evil Apple forced people to switch from using Lightning to USB-C.
> Android phones have gone from ExtUSB to mini-USB, to micro-USB, to USB-C in the same timeframe
Except, so did all of the other devices that charge and connect to computers. Go-pros and gamepads and what-have-you required the same cables and went through the same churn, so buying a new cable wasn't another extra cable to carry around in addition to the ones you need for other things. Apple doesn't get to claim that. If I want to use my bluetooth headphones with my iphone on a trip I have to bring a USB-C cable and a lightning cable.
>users to be far more upset then having a different cable then other devices
I’m sure they already have a usbc charger for something else by now. Also we all know people would be cheering and praising Apple the day it happens.
Defending lightning in 2023 is ridiculous. USB-C is here and mature and used on their laptops and iPads. Even if you’re knee deep in Apples ecosystem your laptop or tablet already has a charger that would work.
I think you missed my point: users will be more upset bv the change to usb-c making their lightning devices/docks no longer work then they currently are having to have 2 types of cables. Its not as easy for apple as "just change it usb c and everyone get a new charging cable" as many people seem to think it is.
as i said the last time apple changed the connector type people were Very Upset.
> iPhones have an ecosystem around lighting, cables docks devices etc, to change that would cause users to be far more upset then having a different cable then other devices, see the outrage when they switched to lightning in the first place
Actually incredible to me that people can have this mindset. Have an adapter for your gaff proprietary cable with MFI chips to make sure third parties can't make long-lasting ones cheaply, not for the standardised USB-C one.
If your mouse is the only device in your house that takes a lightning connector, why are you frantically trying to find the cable every time it gets low? Just keep the cable by your mouse. It’s not like you are using it for anything else. And why “frantically” anyway? The mouse gives you loads of warning before the battery goes, I routinely use it for hours after the warning. This is not an emergency.
So you wouldn't mind if you keyboard had its own cable as well and gave you plenty of warning before the battery dies? At what point is it ok to complain about an annoying inconvenience that doesn't have to exist?
I suspect the goal is to remove physical ports entirely from any device small enough to practically charge wirelessly, so they're just delaying until they can do that to replace Lightning.
The easiest solution is to simply not buy Apple equipment since they're user-hostile.
Apple is a premium luxury brand, like Bentley or Coach or Rolex. If you buy Apple stuff, you should be happy to buy different chargers and cables for the different Apple devices.
It's not delusional. You have a point with the M2, but most Apple owners don't have those, they just have iPhones and a few other associated gadgets. There's nothing special about iPhone hardware, in fact it's usually behind other manufacturer's hardware at similar or somewhat lower price points.
Obviously some aspects of a phone are very subjective. Like the Camera, everyone I know who has an iPhone 14 Pro Max think the photos produced are amazing. Yet you jump on the internet and people will tell you they are shit. Mainly because they hate Apple and even a 10yo Android is obviously better than the latest iPhone.
But the Processor is SO far ahead of the competition its crazy. FaceID is still superior to the competition.
Honestly, the recent iPhones' camera is shit. Half the images I see on twitter/reddit now look absolutely stunning as a thumbnail, but the moment you zoom in to take a closer look at something, the photos just look like a 90's webcam photo upscaled with Topaz AI, like a painting drawn by DALL-E.
Well according to blind test, with 20 million votes iPhone 14 Pro camera is solid, but really nothing special in flagship tier. And in fact did loose to budget Android brand Realme.
I agree with the results in the video (and the inference the author made that most of what's going on here is software processing being over-tuned rather than hardware), but I don't really think this is dispositive to the overall conversation, which is basically:
Side A: Apple makes ludicrously expensive ultra-luxe products that only the conspicuously rich buy, like Rolex or Bentley.
Side B: Apple is definitely on the premium end of the market, but generally justify their presence there due to elements of product quality, and their price positioning isn't anything like Rolex or Bentley.
I think pointing out individual instances where products exist that beat Apple products in some respect and are cheaper doesn't really weigh in on the debate. In broad terms, Apple's high end phones are at or near price comparability with other high end phones, and at or near performance/specs/value with other high end phones. Maybe a smidge above or below in some respects at different times, but basically that's where they are.
To me, Apple is closer to Volvo, or maybe in a pinch BMW, in terms of their market positioning than it is to Bentley. That's not to say you can't prefer a Kia (better value / cheaper price) or a Genesis (premium brand spun off from a traditionally cheaper competitor) or a Lexus or an Audi (in the same price tier), but more or less it makes very little sense to pretend BMW and Bentley are the same thing.
Personally I think Apple is exactly like volvo. Nothing really special, but appealing to some part of the audience. For some unknown reason they think that they can be overpriced, when they really are pretty mediocre overall. Saying that as a volvo owner :-)
I think it's hard to compare smartphones to cars. Buying a Volvo isn't that different from buying a BMW or a Toyota or a Ford: they all work on the same roads. Buying a Volvo doesn't lock you into only driving on Volvo roads, buying Volvo gasoline, and listening to Volvo music, and only getting the best experience if you have a Volvo house.
I always enjoy these sort of tests. I have the iPhone 13 Pro Max. There are times I take photos and I'm like "wow the camera is amazing" and other times I'm like "gah, wtf is this".
Then when I saw side-by-side comparisons of Pixel 7 Pro and 14 Pro Max, half the time I pick the 7 and the other half the 14.
What's interesting to me tho is how low the Huawei phone is compared to the Pixel, because when every there's arguments on Facebook about iPhone or something, there's countless comments about the Huawei being the best camera hands down, no competition. But it looks like it doesn't come close to top 3 in any category?
Ultimately the best camera is the one you have with you.
That's exactly what it comes to - most of modern flagships are the same. Best is one you have with you. You can pick traits that are important to you.
What's really weird are iPhone owners that begin conversations with "of course iPhone is objectively better", which I have met on HN a few times. They seem to live in a different reality, where it's justified to spit out couple hundred of dollars to not think for a five minutes.
The individual components are (e.g camera and screen) but in terms of the SOC they're still several years ahead of the competition on performent to power consumption, arguably the most important part of a mobile device.
It hasn't been relevant for years. It mattered when it doubled the speed but I can use a 6S even today and not care to upgrade. I can use a Pixel 3a and not care to upgrade.
Nobody buys the new iPhone because the SOC uses 20mAh less and is 13% faster and 300% faster in some irrelevant benchmark.
Camera quality, and bad battery life from old phone seem to be why normal people upgrade, brand and design occasionally too.
I think people value the better SOC, but less incrementally year-over-year and more on the kind of upgrade cycle they're on. An iPhone 6S is absolutely still useable, and if you upgrade to a 7 it'll feel mostly the same, but if you upgrade to a 10 (or a 12 or a 14) you'll notice workflows where you get a real increase in fluidity and the same is true on a Pixel. I agree that battery failure and camera is likely what _drives_ the upgrade, mind you, but the better SOC brings collateral benefits.
The question is: why do people upgrade to another iPhone (or from Android->iPhone) instead of to an Android? I'd say the big reasons are 1) brand prestige, 2) familiarity if they're already an iPhone owner, 3) because they're locked into the Apple ecosystem, 4) (for converts) their friends bullied them into joining their club.
So iPhone users are susceptible and ignorant who buy expensive items not based on whether it meets their needs but based on marketing and peer pressure.
Always a good approach to have in life. Thinking everyone is dumb except for you.
People also genuinely change for the better camera. I knew one girl that liked BTS so much she switched to Android with the Samsung phone with BTS headphones lol.
Nobody bullies someone into getting an iPhone lol because nobody calls or texts anymore they all use FB IG or snap so those group chat memes you heard of have not been a thing for over 5 years.
>People also genuinely change for the better camera. I knew one girl that liked BTS so much she switched to Android with the Samsung phone with BTS headphones lol.
Huh? I'm talking about people switching to iPhone from Android (or staying with iPhone through an upgrade). The iPhone camera is nothing really special, and never has been: Android phones have always had the cutting-edge camera tech.
>Nobody bullies someone into getting an iPhone lol because nobody calls or texts anymore they all use FB IG or snap so those group chat memes you heard of have not been a thing for over 5 years.
That's not what I see when I see American users talk about using SMS messages and iMessage. SMS seems to still be very popular there, for some strange reason. Plus, it's not just the iMessage thing; it's people in real life seeing their friend with a non-iPhone and asking them "why don't you have an iPhone like everyone else?"
> There is no laptop that I can buy today that is equivalent to an M2 MacBook Pro at any price point let alone significantly cheaper.
Why are you comparing with an imaginary equivalent? Different things matter to different people - dimensions, weight, battery life, raw power, extendability, screen. There are a bunch of options that beat M2 Macs on all those bar battery life - e.g. my personal Asus ROG Zephyrus G14 is better for the things that matter to me than my work-issued M1 MBP and it's not even close - a screen that doesn't cause eyestrain within tens of minutes, choice in the OS, similar dimensions, much more raw power, extendability, repairability. The only thing in which it's worse is battery life. An LG Gram is lighter than an MBA/MBP, and goes to 17'' for the screen size.
Don't get me wrong, MBP hardware is pretty good. The problems are lack of choice (like screen type), highway robbery when buying extra RAM/storage, and a nearly total lack of repairability and fully total lack of extendability. Oh and a pretty subpar OS.
because the word "simplest" has so many locally contextually defined meanings that communication is fraught.
I mean "honour your father and mother" -what does the word honour mean?? bestow them with a title? give them a gold Oscar statue?
Also you said spread. I didn't see a jar of butter and a knife. what spread is this? You said doctrine. Can I see some statements from the episcopacy on this please...
Apple is the only (the one, the only) phone manufacturer that sells a human-hand-sized phone in the US, the iPhone Mini. I'd love to go back to Android, I find iOS to be pretty terrible, but I'm afraid my hands are not 15 inches wide, so it's just not an option for me.
I recently watched an iPhone 13 conversion video where someone essentially tucked in the lightning to C chip from the stock Apple charging cable inside of the phone and used a Samsung type C port to maintain the waterproof rating.
It was pretty neat and eye opening.
I’m considering the project when I retire my current phone so I can continue to use the old phone as a video camera in my rig where everything else is type C.
Nah I think it’s because apple didn’t want to be the “evil company forcing them to buy new cables and devices” and getting backlash like when the introduced lightning in the first place.
This way they waited it out and now the eu “is to blame”
And people hoping that Apple’s move to USB C will mean USB3 speeds need to look no further than the latest low end iPad that has USB C. But transfers data at USB 2 speeds. The same happened on many low end to midrange Android phones.
> And people hoping that Apple’s move to USB C will mean USB3 speeds... than the latest low end iPad
Who is expecting anything out of the low end iPad for anything other than taking notes or watching videos? The new high-end iPads are thunderbolt and USB4.
But more importantly... so? What does this have to do with charging AirPods?
Basically no cables that are USB-C and more than 0.5 meters support charging AND video/high-speed. Unfortunately, I think people just have to accept that there's "data cables" and "PD cables" and "junk short cheap cables that don't do anything". You can spend like $150 buying multi-meter thunderbolt/USB-IF cables that support PD + full data and full video, or just buy two cables.
No, I've also got a MacBook. And in my life, this supposed flaw in USB-C just doesn't exist. I have yet to experience a USB-C cable that doesn't do what I expect it to. But perhaps that is because I don't have unreasonable expectations, like the shape of the hole I plug a wire into making data transfer speeds faster
I didn't say it was slow. I said on low end iPads people dont typically have a need to connect things to its USB, certainly nothing that would have any benefit from USB 3.
A low end iPad with an A14 is hardware wise more capable and definitely more responsive than many low end consumer PCs that are sold today. For instance it is more than capable of editing music and video that you may want to transfer to or from a computer or an external hard drive.
That is a design defect. The USB-C spec requires C-C charging so if it has a USB-C port and won't charge with a C-C cable it is defective. Return it and tell them why. I have done this a few times.
How does USB A deliver power differently such that it works with devices which don’t support USB PD?
With USB C, is the power delivery on a pin these devices don’t have? Then the pin USB A would use to send power isn’t present with USB C (either physically or on purpose)?
USB-C allows a certain pin to be used for PD negotiation. USB-A doesn't have this pin. USB-A to USB-C cables have a fixed resistor pulling this pin to signal which power requirements they support.
Badly designed devices do not negotiate power requirements and just start drawing power, which doesn't work with proper USB-C cables (which expect to negotiate first) but obviously works with USB-A to USB-C cables (which always support the same power requirements)
Thanks for the explanation. This explains all the weird behaviour of devices I have which don’t charge (or charge poorly) over USB C. This was so confusing because I assumed that they should work fine given that they have USB C ports, but no… I’ll have to keep some USB A to C cords around for years still.
I just bought a CalDigit element hub and had some hesitation because I thought “how long will I really need the USB A ports?” Evidently they will be handy for quite a while.
> How does USB A deliver power differently such that it works with devices which don’t support USB PD?
USB A devices (and by extension, USB A to USB C cables) always delivers power. USB C devices only deliver power once they see a specific resistor to ground on a control pin. If the device is missing that resistor (actually a pair of resistors, one for each side of the cable), a USB C device on the end of a USB C to USB C cable won't provide power.
(Preemptive nitpicking: actually, USB C devices provide a bit of power in that control pin, which is how they detect that resistor to ground; but that's separate from the main power pins.)
To add more detail, USB-PD (power delivery) is a complex negotiated protocol. The charger is supposed to output some meager 5v power supply like a traditional USB A supply, and the device asks for some specific voltage, and the charger tells the device if it can do that, and then does it (up to 24v, iirc). PD Chargers are supposed to support any of the supported voltages, but many (eg. Apple MacBook Chargers) only support a subset of the voltages.
The way I had it explained to me is that “Type C” is the form factor, and that’s what is meant by universal. Which actual USB standard is implemented by the client/host varies widely.
This leads to an immense amount of confusion because people are used to different form factors indicating compatibility.
> The way I had it explained to me is that “Type C” is the form factor, and that’s what is meant by universal. Which actual USB standard is implemented by the client/host varies widely.
There's also a couple of universal USB standards: every client/host is supposed to implement USB 2.0, unless they're charging-only; and every client/host is supposed to implement simple power delivery (negotiated through resistor values) at 5V and at least 500mA (for a USB-A 2.0 to USB-C cable, other combinations are supposed to deliver more current).
I'd much rather have it this way than how it was before. Sure, there are headaches, but not more than in the thirty-adapter-bag before times, and now if you get a nice cable that supports thunderbolt/usb3.14159/etc. it really can do everything.
I find the USB-C headaches worse. With a bag of cables if the cable fits[1] it works to the full capability of the device. If I'm traveling and forgot something I can expect that the cheapest gas station cable or a borrowed cable will work.
With USB-C I have to spend good money for every every cable in order to ensure that any cable I grab from my bag works. And these cables are going to be so thick that they are annoying to use with a mouse or keyboard.
I can rearrange my office and use a cheap 5 meter usb-A to B cable to get to where the printer is now (true story). If I want a 5 meter usb-C to C cable for data I need to spend over $300.
[1] excluding all the possibilities of chargers with incompatible DC barrel plugs, which is generally true of the time frames we're talking about
If you use a lot of wired devices I guess I can see that being a headache.
I use wireless peripherals and make sure they're all usb-c, so when I travel I only need to remember one cable, maybe another as backup. These problems also improve as USB-C becomes more mass-manufactured. Case in point: now there's a 5 meter USB-IF certified usb-c power/ data cable at the top of the Amazon results for $19.
Of course. Simple solution to all people yelling and complaining their 2$ amazon usb cable is not top notch compared to 50$ apple one is - don't buy cheap crap.
There are good usb cables that handle it all, still cost fraction of apple ones due to simple effect of competition, and are more durable. But quality comes at a cost, just you don't need to pay apple profit margins.
Keyboards are lightning too; they come with a lightning -> USB-C cable in the box. I imagine all of their lineup will eventually move to it, shame it wasn't in one swoop though.
I wonder how long until it'll appear on AliExpress, which already has those "real" AirPods with USB-C ports.
It reminds me of a memorable quote from a long-defunct PMP forum over a decade ago: "How can you tell a fake iPod from a real one? It doesn't need iTunes and works like a mass storage device, has an FM radio, voice recorder, and can play videos."
Will be downvoted to oblivion, but I can't imagine what it's like having the brains, skills and resources this guy clearly has and then deciding to spend my time making usb-c airpods that are going to be released at some point within the next 22 months anyway. Plus the hours spent making an accompanying YouTube video. Seems like a colossal waste of time.
Some people do things because "why not?" We tend to call this "having a hobby". And if you can monetize it in some way (post on Youtube and get the revenue from that), again, "why not?" It's weird to knock someone for enjoying doing something they've done and sharing it with the world.
It's not that I'm knocking him per say, it's just that he looks so immensely talented I feel with his skill set he could be making videos like "here's an open source hearing aid I made that only costs $10" that could be having a massive positive impact on the world rather than tutorials on how to swap out the usb port on expensive headphones that you'll be able to buy off the shelf next year anyway.
Well I guess we better all tell you what we are working on in our free time so you can reassign us if there is something you think has higher social utility.
For things like that, you really need to have a passion for working on it, and develop a fairly specific skillset, not only in the technology realm, but in the medical realm. Hearing aids aren't just stupid expensive earbuds.
This is the thing he's working on now. He's working on other things. He has hobbies and he has a job. He's going to do what he enjoys doing. Who cares if it's not useful to you or me.
There are other people working on those problems.
As a diabetic, I've been fascinated to watch the progress of things like AAPS, Loop, OpenInsulin, etc. But I'm not going to demand everyone working on "useless" things to jump on the thing that I will specifically benefit from.
It's the journey, not the destination. And some people do things solely to make YouTube videos showing off their skills, it's how you build an audience.
There is a business where you take picture, glue it to cardboard, cut it into pieces and then sell it to people who try to put it back together. Sometimes a puzzle is fun, and that’s all you need.
The youtube video alone will probably make him an easy 5 figures just in ad revenue over the next few years. Plus it helps build up his channel overall, which will get him exposure for his other videos (and more $$$ from ads and sponsors). Well worth the hours he put into it.
I thought you were exaggerating — "... an easy 5 figures..." — until I visited his YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@ExploringTheSimulation/videos and saw that his previous video, posted 6 months ago, has 2 million views.
Did you not see the article on here about a guy making a GUI to scroll through assembly instructions on a GameBoy? Writing assembly on the GameBoy, without a keyboard
Sometimes companies don't make changes until after hobbyists take matters into their own hands and make custom mods. Apple didn't consider many of the mods/software until people start jailbreaking their phones. The fact that this guy has the skills to fabricate his own cases, circuits, etc is massive. Any mods he'd desire to make would still require him to reverse engineer what Apple created so it's not time lost at all.
Its a catch 22. You get good at these things by basically doing them for free on your own time. It's like the best programmers will program just for the sake of it. The depth of skills comes from uninhibited exploration.
Everyone knows what AirPods are. They know they are magic. And here's this amazing wizard guy who can do the Apple magic better/faster/different. That's a huge audience there.
No point complaining about downvotes. You might as well complain about carpet shocks. But honestly, what are the odds that someone with your attitude will fit in on a site called "Hacker News?"
Aren't you in danger of wasting your own time here, when you could be connecting with like-minded users on other venues?
It makes a lot of sense if you assume his main goal is the YouTube channel. Common device, common problem => thumbnail and title alone have a good chance of driving clicks. Anything even remotely close to "advanced" will require a lot of specialist knowledge that would limit the reach of the video.
So everyone who wants the new port should be forced to buy a new case? Have we really gotten to the point where we ridicule people for not participating in throw away culture?
People should have the tools to update and maintain their stuff. This is an awesome project that could help minimize e-waste for years to come.
It's not though is it. It's like saying a doctor shouldn't spend their work hours looking after a 20 year old and otherwise healthy patient with the common cold.
This may be how this person chooses to keep their skills sharp. I program. I program mostly at work, but also choose to do side projects to keep certain skills sharp that I may not be using at work.
People are going to miss lightning when it’s gone. USB-C is prone to the same issues as USB-A where the cable ending will break under pressure or warp meaning it won’t fit in the hole. This happened to me on a Yubikey on my key ring.
What I don't like with USB-C is that dust can settle both in the connector and in the socket. In both cases, it's kinda hard to clean because the space is tiny, especially in the socket because of the piece in the middle. I've had 2 devices who stopped charging because of that.
Lightning can gather dust only in the socket, and it's very easy to clean in comparison.
I agree. The design is brittle and very weak. If apple doesn't support those standard protocols it won't even bring any benefits. I love lighting. It's slow at data (if you use it to transfer data lol) but it's a robust physical connection.
Absolutely, but this will never be the case with lightning. Lightning cable's weak point is the cable itself - which is something applicable to ALL cables. I'm suggesting the male end of the connector of Lightning is far more durable and resilient to these problems of wear and tear.
Counterpoint: in USB-C, the crushable, breakable part with the spring is in the cable. With Lightning, it's in the $1500 phone. Yubikeys are an unfortunate edge case but normally it's a lot easier to get a new cable.
$1500? Be realistic, there's a $30,000 Android phone but you don't quote that on every Android phone. Most iPhones are free-700 at most.
I have NEVER had a single lightning port go bad. Ever. MiniUSB either. Countless microUSB ports and USB-C cables and ports have been destroyed with normal use.
I can only match anecdote with anecdote, but I've seen two Lightning ports fail and zero USB-C. Micro-usb did have a tendency to break but not more than mini-usb, and that's not anecdotal-- the port design was so prone to failure USB-IF redesigned it (it was still prone to failure but slightly less so).
How did they fail? Usually failures are just dusty insides. I've seen two "fail" and I'd fix them by using a toothpick.
I want to like USB-C because it's universal but it just breaks so easily. If they make a good mangentic one all is forgiven, I'm using a non standard "dangerous" one to alleviate it's fragility.
Many iPhones are free in the US since they're given away or hand me downs, only the hand me down was 2 years old and still good. If you had asked earlier, or was around me you would have gotten a 6S and 6+.
I’m surprised AirPods Pro still come with Lightning. I bought Beats Fit Pro which I think are pretty similar internally but a more running-friendly shape, and they use USB-C on the case. The previous model used Lightning. I guess it might be because the Beats are marketed for Android too.
It takes a while to scale up production of female USB-C ports that aren't thunderbbolt. Apple's doing it in smaller volume first on Beats before doing it on the much larger volume Airpods.
At their scale they can't just buy commodity parts.
Lightning is a joke and nothing more than a cable tax in 2023.
So stupid I have to carry an extra charging cable to charge two of the 3 devices I’m carrying just because Apple wants to make sure I can only buy cables from them.
I've got a usb c to {all the things} kit like this[1] that I keep in my cable bag. Not needing lightning at all would be better but it works in a pinch.
I stopped bothering with 3rd party lighting because it seems like Apple keeps finding ways to detect it and make the experience janky when its not an official cable.
I broke down and got the AirPod Pros this year as the noise canceling is just that life changing. So don't worry guys next year you won't need to hack them with after market PCBs as Apple is 100% guaranteed to do it themselves.
Open source? Just go buy something online for $15 and be done with it.
I mean sure, I get open source - but when there are super cheap commercial alternatives commonly available? It doesn't bring much value to the ecosystem.
edit I see by the downvotes I should not say bad things about open source. I'll never do that again...
The downvotes are not telling you to not say bad things about open source. The downvotes are telling you that you do not understand the advantages and disadvantage of open source.
As someone paid very well to work with open source code, I can tell you that financially open source is often more expensive than proprietary solutions. Yet it provides much, much more value for the money.
Go buy what exactly online for $15? The part in question (lightning / USB-C port assembly for the AirPods case) wasn't available before this guy made it.
No returns”
He must provide 2 years warranty selling to regular consumers. That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe. That’s why every 20€ BOM gadget has a retail price of 99€.