"But there is also a dark side to the social world of middle school, as anyone who has been through it will remember. Sixth graders who do not have friends are at risk of anxiety, depression, and low self-esteem. About 12 percent of the 6,000 sixth graders in Juvonen’s study were not named as a friend by anyone else. They had no one to sit with at lunch and no one to stick up for them when bullied."
Very relate-able, unfortunately. In many ways, it set the tone for my life.
This is going to be perhaps the least popular comment I've ever made on HN, but I will relate to you the advice my parents gave me when I was a socially awkward, introverted, bullied middle-schooler:
Dad: Suck it up. Mom: Get over it.
Being bullied in school doesn't mean you have to be bullied for life. As a kid, things can be stacked against you. You're surrounded by people who are older, stronger, more powerful, and more capable than you. But you don't have to be bullied as an adult if you don't allow it to happen. Adulthood is a much more even playing field than childhood. You have resources (HR department, change jobs, change neighborhoods, police, social services, lawyers, etc...)
I know there are people who as adults are bullied. I know some of them. But in every case I've seen they've allowed a history of bullying to make them believe that they are powerless to change their circumstances. They're not. They choose to remain in that position because it's familiar, and change and confrontation are scary. But sometimes you've got to suck it up, act like an adult, and do adult things. And that sometimes means standing up for yourself.
Your experiences don't translate well to anyone I've know who was bullied. I was bullied in junior high. I was told to stand up to the bullies, to defend myself. I was 5'6", 125lbs. The bullies (three of them) were all 50lbs heavier than me, and were on the football team. I stood up to them once. Kicked one in the balls. The other two, beat my ass and held me down til the third recovered; he beat on me for a good ten minutes. This went on for several years until they got bored with me and discovered girls.
Sucking it up and getting over it? Yeah, I sucked it up. But you don't get over something like that. At my current job, my boss is a type A manager who encourages "competition." I have a family to finish raising, so yes, I'm powerless to change my circumstances. I suck it up everyday for the paycheck, knowing that my kids are fed, my mortgage paid, and my retirement is being funded.
But to blithely state that people should suck it up and get over it minimizes the cost of that type of treatment. I have few friends, I'm incredibly cynical, and I'm probably a bad coworker since I have a sense of snark that I frequently voice.
> I have a family to finish raising, so yes, I'm powerless to change my circumstances.
Where do you live that changing teams or changing employers can’t be done until you raise a family? No offense, but in every case I’ve heard someone use that explanation, it’s just been an excuse to avoid the effort of change.
No offense taken. I live in the Midwest and work for a non-tech company. I'm also over 50, which drastically limits the jobs available. Changing to a different company would result in a lower salary, and arguably less stability. I'm consciously choosing a stable company until retirement. I had an opportunity to move to a smaller, more agile company when I was 40, but opted to stay put my wife through grad school as well as keep my kids in the same town.
As someone who is satisfied with the success I've found in life -- you forgot a whole truckload of luck being involved.
One of the few things I think Scott Adams has right when is he says we can influence our luck. But at the end we play odds, sometimes despite our sweat, blood, tears, and sometimes in spite of their lack.
I don't disagree. I thought about including luck, but thought that would take away from the things that we can actually control, and I wanted to contrast "seeking comfort" with "seeking sweat, blood and tears".
Success can also be built with a rich family supporting you. Either rich family, or blood sweat, and tears, you always need luck on your side. But you can buy more luck if you have a rich family.
A. Maturity. We expect developmental difference and if they don't happen, it indicates a problem. Normal but undesirable behavior at age 2 would sociopathic if done at age 22. Toddlers don't get arrested if they bite someone, while adults do; I would claim that is justifiable.
B. Destructive potential. Mature people are faster, stronger, and smarter; a bar brawl has a greater chance for broken bones, concussions, etc. than a playground fight.
---
That said, there are things in relationships you have to suck up and get over at work; they are different than for a middle schooler though.
> B. Destructive potential. Mature people are faster, stronger, and smarter; a bar brawl has a greater chance for broken bones, concussions, etc. than a playground fight.
That isn't even destructive. Broken bones heal and you're healthy again. Bullying a child, that is destructive.
Learning to stand up for yourself is more than "Suck it up". I think your comment is in good faith, because sucking it up is the correct response... for someone that is able to do it. But before then a change of mindset is required, and that can be a large undertaking for some people.
What that helped me: - Fitness (starting with simple yoga to learn appreciation for my body, then progressing with weights) - Stoicism, Letters from a Stoic Seneca, Meditations Marcus Aurelius - Committing to memory basic social skills and nuances, The Charisma Myth - Hypnosis and self affirmations
Also I think I prefer "Onward" rather than "Suck it up". If you have any resources that helped you, particularly in social skills, I am always looking for more resources.
It's sounds like a cop out, but everyone's experience is different. Being bullied in middle school can be vastly different experience if your home life is pleasant and supportive vs. unpleasant or unstable, if you're academically gifted vs. prone to struggling academically, if the school is well staffed and safe vs. otherwise.
I grew up in a loving home and attended good public schools in a fairly upper middle class school district. Both my brother and sister were subject to some serious bullying, and there is no question that it made their school life miserable for a time, but it was not the formative episode of their youths.
On the other hand, its not hard to see in a worse situation how easily it could be.
For me bullying stopped when I started martial arts. I still wasn’t popular but people knew they shouldn’t mess with me (I never had to fight but the bullies knew I could) and left me alone. If I had kids I would definitely try to get them into jiu Jitsu class or similar.
This physical confidence still carries me until today even in professional circumstances.
>For me bullying stopped when I started martial arts.
This is so true. At the end of the day, we are primal animals, and knowing that you can physically dominate (or can be physically dominated) has a huge influence in personal conflict. Not only that, martial arts are great exercise, which is one less thing you can be bullied about.
It's obviously not a bullying "cure-all", but it helps.
I think this is good advice, though it never would have occurred to my parents (or me).
Emotional bullying is a different problem. If I could advise my younger self, it'd be that when the line is crossed, you have to lay down the law: This stops, or I'm out of here. And put on your adult hat and follow through.
I've experienced one side of this and seen the other side of it first-hand. I am the guy that stuck up for myself, both in middle school and high school, and as an adult. Police got involved many times, I was punished despite everyone involved agreeing I had acted in self-defense. I was unable at the time to afford adequate legal representation and the only advocates I had sided with the government/police. Later in life I had similar situations but was wealthy enough to afford adequate legal representation and things went much better for me.
I've also observed a friend of mine being bullied as a kid, a teenager, and then as an adult go to the police because that's what he was taught/told by his parents. As a child they did nothing and made the situation worse by causing the bullies too know he'd reported them without actually taking any action to improve things. As a teenager they bullied him too, called him weak, basically told him he deserved it. As an adult, he was arrested and charged although the charges were dropped because all his wounds were defensive, because the bully was a woman.
The police, at least in the US, are not your friend. Most cops are ex-bullies or current bullies. Many people join the police force explicitly because the badge allows them to cover up their own misbehavior and empowers them with impunity in their actions. Don't be so ignorant as to believe otherwise, the evidence is plain and available for all to see, and anecdotes support it much more viscerally.
But, yes, thank you for your victim blaming narrative. As if someone is making up cops being bullies... as if.
>Now you're just making things up. But it's OK, I understand. People who are being bullied will grasp on to any excuse they can to keep themselves from changing their lives
Nice ad-hominem.
I'm not being bullied but I've seen many of these scenarios playing out in real life.
Your victim blaming is now here in full display for anyone to see.
This is the most shit-tier advice I've ever seen posted on Hacker News, and I've seen a lot. Basically you are implying "fuck you for being bullied, don't come to me for advice or sympathy." And you are their parent. Isn't this how pent up rage develops? Are you trying to turn your child into a school shooter?
There is some weird thinking about bullying, where the victim has to take care of it by themselves, the bullies are allowed to do whatever they want, and everyone who isn't a victim or a bully is just not involved.
I was lucky, I hardly got bullied, but it always bothered me seeing other kids get it, and I used to be friendly with them as much as I could. This might sound like a pretty weak thing to say, I didn't manage to confront the bullies in some dramatic fashion (although the opportunities to do this were very few in my school at least). But I think it made a difference to show a bit of solidarity with kids that were getting bullied, some of them told me this much later.
Sometimes as an adult you need to suck it up and provide for your family, working in a small industry, at a small business, getting bullied at work every day because unless you retrain, there are no their options.
I've been in a similar situation, and it does truly suck. Things can be changed, but it can take quite a while and be rather painful.
One thing that's helped me some is the realization that I can simply walk away from almost anything. Kids are the primary exception, and I think as a parent or guardian, you have a deep duty to suffer whatever you must to try to give them a good start in life.
You are correct. I've been there. But these circumstances don't last forever. Life is constantly changing. Sometimes you can make the change. Sometimes you just have to wait.
The article explains the danger of this approach, with reasonable science. It seems to have worked in your case but is more risky than other strategies.
I didn't see that in the article. Maybe we're interpreting it differently?
It is critical for adolescents to learn to deal with hard things and to approach problems in positive ways. Love the martial arts training ididntdothis mentioned - increase the child's ability and confidence, then even without using the martial skills, the bullying stopped.
He didn't mention bullying actually, he was just referring to not having friends due to "anxiety, depression, and low self-esteem".
I can relate. I wasn't bullied in middle school, but I had no social skills and no confidence, so I didn't really have many friends. Telling a kid like that to suck it up obviously doesn't change anything. I do however agree though in the context of being bullied.
« Suck it up » means « Don’t have feelings » which make me get highly cynical, and cutting all affection ties with the outside world, which makes me want to commit... bad things. To others. So no, getting cynical isn’t the solution. We need feeling towards our next of kins.
I think it depends on the severity and nature of the bullying, the personality of the child in question, and the parents can be gentler in delivering the message.
On the whole I agree with you. My parents were similarly tough on me (except the one time I was bullied by a teacher, as they recognized the difference between annoying peers and someone abusing their authority and I certainly appreciated it) - however, they were not as tough on my siblings and more protective of them because they had very different personalities and it would have affected them more than it did me.
Reasonable. Although I have been bullied some, it was really the overall quote that spoke to me.
Everyone "wakes up" early in life and starts to realize the cards they've been dealt. It would be really nice if there were a lot of thoughtful adults around to help them to adapt to that, but the world just isn't like that. Some things can be improved, but in the end, as the ancients knew, life is ultimately suffering and sorrow.
For me it absolutely set the initial tone, and that tone continued for more than a decade. Its incredibly hard to work through, and it won't ever go completely away. One plus is it gives you an "outsiders" perspective on a lot of things, which can mean you get to be correct a lot when other's can't see patterns they're caught up in.
The hardest part for me at the moment is that the feeling of friendship is so fleeting, and it turns me into a people pleaser when its not necessary. I trick myself into believing that if someone isn't actively enjoying my presence, they are souring on me or are reconsidering our relationship. That belief also means its hard to keep up friendships since I often think a relationship is "over" when it could be kept up.
Thanks. Must have been nice, but I suppose the cost was experiencing the change to the way things are as an adult (which I think is a very common experience). In my case, I've long since adapted to a near-solitary existence, and I'd say it doesn't particularly bother me anymore.
Indeed, that may very well be true. Ironic, isn’t it, that we are more connected than ever and yet lonelier than ever.
Here’s an idea for a founder looking for a startup: a Tinder-esque platform for meeting and making friends with similar interests. I’m sure this has been done before but certainly hasn’t become mainstream.
I think it's very common, but in my experience living the city helps a lot (San Francisco in my case, compared to say the south bay).
There's a selection effect where people who live in dense areas are more open to meeting new people. (There's also a culture of drinking which I'm mostly over, but it's still a net positive IMO.)
Listen, I hate to make random generalizations but I have a few observations about school as described by Americans on the Internet (I did not attend school in America). I'm only saying this because it makes me somewhat nervous about bringing up a child in a standard school in America. For conciseness I'll say "Americans" or "people" but I mean "Americans who I've seen comment on Reddit and HN". Here's what I've seen:
* People say "Kids are cruel" or "Kids are little shits" or stuff like that. This is very far from what I recall school being like. Sure, some people would make fun of you, etc. but that's just banter and the process of growing up is that. You can choose to join the norm (which I saw lots of people do) or violate that norm openly (which I also saw lots of people do) and you could do that for some norms and not for others.
* People say that kids made fun of each other for their clothes. We had uniforms. Everyone wore the same clothes and the same shoes. No jewelry. No cell phones. Everyone used the same tools.
* People say that kids would harass them by sitting next to them and constantly belittling them. We had assigned seating. Teachers would rearrange seating based on whether you're being disruptive, whether you're making other kids uncomfortable, etc.
* People say that school sucks. But I recall all school being pretty fun, even the negative feeling of heartbreak of crushes unrequited, games lost, or embarrassing moments in front of class are not feelings I carry negatively with me.
* People say they were made fun of for their hobbies. People would make fun of other people. I'm not going to lie. But someone who was the class's best CS 1.5 player was celebrated for that. And the top kids in each subject were heroes.
I know this usually comes off offensive but perhaps it's the structure of American schools that the complainants went to that influences the problem?
FWIW in school my classmates would describe me as "eccentric" or "weird" pretty often, but ultimately they didn't hurt me in any real way. And here are some other related facts about schooling that I notice isn't the case in America:
* Most people would go to school by public transit or transport themselves on non-motor vehicles: bicycles were okay but no one was allowed motorized transport.
* Teachers had substantial control over the class. There was very little disruption. And when it existed it was harmless.
* There were no weapons of any sort on campus.
* There were drugs (I smoked weed - which I regret mildly because I suspect it made me stupider) but it wasn't a complex organized trade and the hard drugs weren't present.
> even the negative feeling of heartbreak of crushes unrequited, games lost
Look, if you had heartbreaks that means you were in the girls game and you were 10 miles above the people we’re talking about here. You don’t seem to feel what it is to be excluded from the group, it’s an entirely different feeling from being rejected by a few girls and having enough support and love from your family around that it’s not a problem. I’d say 60% of the class don’t belong to the core group, and 20% are extremely solitary. Extremely solitary people also have double problems because they are not supported at home. And surprisingly, lack of love at home creates both the bullies and the victims.
Those people really need help. I know I did. It’s not a condescending tone, I’m just saying that some people are invisible and we need to learn to « see ». I’m 37 and I still have murderous thoughts. I have literally enlightened the lives of a few hundreds people around me by talking about men’s issues and describing them so people can articulate them and eventually get people who support them, and I keep fan mail on a wall at home because they help me see I’m useful to this world. But I never myself received the help I needed.
People need to learn to see. Sometimes you can’t believe how someone sitting next to you can be alone.
It's a cultural thing. Painting in broad strokes, America is more aggressive, abrasive, and racially diverse than other industrialized Western nations.
If you want a school like you had, definitely look at private or charter schools. Because they require application and admission, they can create their own culture and approach to education.
Private and charter schools may be nice for the individuals who get to go to them but from a macro perspective they are terrible. They suck money away from the public school system. We need to have a country were education is for everybody not just rich people.
Went to school in the UK so not entirely the same experience as our american cousins, but absolutely nothing like you describe.
The main points are:
* any class that wasn't segregated on ability would usually have at least one individual who didn't want to be there. They would typically disrupt the class. jump up and swear, push over desks, attack other students or the teacher, spit in other students faces, throw chairs at the windows or doors, etc.
* Every time you changed class you had to walk in the corridor. A packed corridor filled with students. If you pass the student or students who don't like you how can you stop one of them sucker punching you? you can't. Tripping you up and kicking you one after the other before quickly moving along to their class? that too, etc.
* Going to the toilet also presented problems. I am male so used urinals, but what if that gang of students who don't like you see you go into the bathroom? if you are using a urinal they can punch you in the back of the head, or grab you and throw you to the ground and put the boot in before you can even react. Taking a dump in a cubicle? be prepared to have bottles of piss, bricks, etc thrown over the top at you, get the door kicked in and punched, door kicked in and a bottle of piss sprayed in your face, etc.
* Walking home from school? hope a gang of people who don't like you don't beat you up and steal your bag/money/shoes ( this one didn't happen to me, but repeatedly to a friend).
The complaints that you have outlined are absolutely minor and tame.
Bullying in school is a problem for the same reason it is in adult life, that is, being punched/kicked/ hit with a brick/ prevented from going to the bathroom without risk of physical assault in an environment that you have no control over can be distressing and harmful.
FWIW, my American experience tracks well with yours. Yeah, middle school was difficult, but that's because being a kid going through puberty is pretty difficult across the board, I'd expect.
I don't at all doubt that others had bad experiences, and I sympathize with them. But also "if it bleeds it leads" follows in online comments (especially on places like Reddit, which I often find to be rather negative). You aren't hearing the people who just think, "yeah, middle school was okay."
Are you sure you're describing a school and not a prison? I notice that the kids have essentially no choice in anything - can't choose clothing or seating and thus friends.
Also, are you sure that bad things didn't happen or could you have just missed them? You say that school "was pretty fun", which goes starkly against my experience. I didn't have the negative experiences other people in this thread had, but it was just incredibly boring and you had to be there. That alone made it suck.
Very relate-able, unfortunately. In many ways, it set the tone for my life.