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Just so folks understand: in Canada (actually, pretty much everywhere but America) every bank issues it's own non-credit-card affiliated debit card that can be used to pay for things at stores (or get money at the ATM). So this is annoying, but not a huge deal.

I'll get to the cash, get told "sorry, no visa", and take out my debit card to pay that way instead. Really not a big deal.

It's just Walmart annoying their customers to try to prove some point to Visa.



Everywhere but America?

My British debit cards use either the Visa or Mastercard network.

My Danish one does too, though it also uses the local Dankort network if available.


Really? When I lived in Britain 6 years ago my debit card had no credit card affiliation, didn't see any that did.


Probably back in day the card used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_(debit_card)

A few years ago the pinguins took over (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x48eLs8tnJo) and basically every card in the UK is now either Visa/MasterCard/Amex and very few Maestro.


Ah. That explains why when my Maestro card expired, it was replaced with a Visa Debit card.

The latter is more widely accepted for online shopping (only some merchants accept Maestro, whereas everyone accepts Visa and Visa Debit usually works there), so I was happy.


The cards have Visa or Mastercard on them but can fall back to use the debit card network by asking you which account to pay with.

The merchant can also disable you from selecting 'credit' while paying to force it to use the debit network.

Its also like this in Australia.

Very few banks still issue debit only cards (Switch/Maestro), they do if you ask for them, but they mostly only work at the ATM.


> asking you which account to pay with

This never happens in the UK. It confuses the heck out of me in countries where it does (e.g. New Zealand).


In Brazil, you can enable the same card you use to manage your bank account and withdraw cash as a Visa/Mastercard credit card. So every time you make a purchase you get a prompt like this

1. CREDITO

2. DEBITO

where you choose if you want to pay with credit or debit.

Last year I went to the UK on vacation. While paying my bills I noticed most people wouldn't know what to do when prompted. They would look confused and just hand me the card machine and let me handle it.


A good amount of places also ask this in the US.


In NZ if you just type your pin it selects the default account which is your every day banking account.

Same thing in Singapore. Never need to select credit in NZ / Aus / SG. Unless you specifically want to use credit.


Since last Thursday they are legally required to ask you but if it's anything like Germany most merchants don't care.


When I use my card outside the UK in a country where this is the norm (e.g. Italy) I am asked to choose the 'circuit' before paying, but the only choice I am given is "VISA DEBIT" - this is on ATMs and Chip&PIN machines.

I don't think any UK banks have their own payment network. The cards you get to access the account directly are debit cards (usually Visa Debit or Maestro), some (i.e. children accounts) give you a 'cash card' which only works at that bank's ATMs.


As far as I can tell, virtually all UK banks issue Visa Debit cards nowadays. Certainly Halifax, HSBC (First Direct), Natwest, Santander, Lloyds and RBS do which covers most of the population.

In the past a lot of cards were Switch, which became Maestro and then everyone dumped it for Visa.

Fortunately we still have the Link system where you're not charged for using an ATM that doesn't belong to your bank. cough Canada cough.


In Canada, debit transactions are run through the Interac network, which is a non-profit set up by the Canadian banks. Interac also has an email money transfer service which is widely used.

Canadian banking is different from everywhere because the market is protected from foreign competition. It makes Canadian bank stocks good to own, but makes banking expensive and annoying for Canadians.


All true, but the system arguably has some important advantages. The rate of tech adoption (e.g. Interac) and the relative insulation from global banking turmoil are two that instantly come to mind.

I hate the banks as much as any red blooded Canadian but it's important to remember that our system is the envy of many other countries.

It's with good reason that the former Bank of Canada governor (Mark Carney) was recruited to head up the Bank of England and also serves as the chairman of the G20's Financial Stability Board.


Except its still a debit card, with all of the problems of debit cards, and none of the additional protections you get from using a credit card.

Somebody steals your credit card and goes on a spree? Call your bank, dispute the charges, and life goes on.

Somebody steals your debit card? Good luck, money is gone from your bank account, and BTW, your mortgage and auto payments just bounced, so we're going to tack on some overdraft fees too. Have a nice day.


> Somebody steals your debit card? Good luck, money is gone from your bank account

I had $4000 stolen from my bank account via a compromised debit card. The charges were reversed the same day. The bank is still liable for fraudulent transactions if you didn't authorize them.


It's a classic case of who is carrying the burden.

With credit it's he bank. Fine show my account balance 4k high, I refuse to pay my bill.

Same thing with debit and it's my cash missing, and I need to go through a dance to get my own cash back.

In fact just had a CC stolen last week. No harm to me because I wasn't holding the burden.

I refuse to use my debit card for anything but at an ATM.


My bank issued me a debit/ATM card by default. I asked, and they replaced it with a plain ATM card that's not a debit card.

They also had this insecure-dy-default behavior allowing checking account overdraws to start pulling out of savings. It's worth checking that setting, too.


I was interested to read in the comments on a different topic that businesses typically have a deposit-only account, a withdrawals-only account and an account in the middle.

As a family, we set up an extra account at Schwab to write checks and do automatic payments against. There wasn't any additional cost to us - having some money sitting in the account is hardly worth worrying about with what Schwab (or anyone else) pays in interest.

The big benefit to me is that the account doesn't have over-draft protections. I have to manually move money into the account from a different account where paychecks, etc. go into. That account can't write checks, etc.

If our account is compromised, well, we lose (temporarily, I hope) what's in there but not the cash that accumulates to pay for property taxes, etc.


Wells Fargo had me set up an extra checking account for this. Of course, the real reason is so they could charge me another $10 a month for it.


ATM vs Debit/ATM is a good call, I will try and switch my current debit cards.

Overdraw protection is tricky. For example Ally offers it for free for me. If I really did accidentally overdraw my checking, I would want it sucked from my savings. However if someone stole my Ally debit, I would not want both my checking AND savings drained...


You can mitigate by keeping two accounts. In your debit card account you keep a minimum balance and transfer funds in as needed to cover purchases. For automatic ACH payments (mortgage, etc.) have those come out of the other account that does not have a linked debit card.

So worst case you are without a small amount of money during any dispute/fraud resolution period, but your major regular ACH payments are not at risk.

The downside is having to monitor your balances closely and transfer funds more often (which can sometimes involve a fee but if you shop around you can find banks that don't change a fee for inter-account transfers).


The way I do it is my salary goes to a online savings account (~2% interest) that's not linked to any cards. I have a debit card I move money over to when I need cash out or to use it (simple with the bank's app). Then I have a CC (used for utilities etc) which I pay every billing period from the savings account.

Works well.


Apparently debit cards are less awful now than when I stopped having to use them.

People can do what they want, but I'm personally very uneasy about directly exposing my bank accounts, so I use credit cards as a buffer. Moreover, I don't have a lot of faith in banks not engaging in shenanigans that I've seen them do to me before, like transaction reordering, double charging debit transactions, debiting charges immediately, while sitting on deposits for up to a week, etc.


I'm personally very uneasy about directly exposing my bank accounts

I think ACH is probably worse than debit cards.

We had some sort of discussion here a few days ago (I forget exact topic, maybe Swift?). Someone linked to why Donald Knuth no longer sends checks to people: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/news08.html

It's an old rant, but if anything, things have gotten worse.

We desperately need some sort of cryptographically secure means of moving money. But it can't have all the baggage of Bitcoin.


The few times I've had debit card fraud the bank detected it before things went crazy and the sole symptom was not being able to use my card.

The one time a charge went through my bank reversed it that day.


Canadian here, had my debit card compromised and $1200 stolen, bank reversed the charges the same day I called them.


Not sure what you're talking about. As others have said, I've had fraudulent transactions on my debit card, and my bank called me to let me know, reversed the charges and cancelled the card and sent me a new one.


With credit card, that easy? I had some fraudulent transactions in my credit card and I had to

a) File a police report b) Do an (offline)report and document every transaction I considered to be fraudulent c) Sent these reports to the bank, where they would go thru it (some sort of committee) and if accepted I would be refunded.

Quite-a-hassle, took several hours to do those reports...

(This is Danish/Finnish bank, Danske Bank. I'm no longer their customer)


>Somebody steals your debit card? Good luck, money is gone from your bank account, and BTW, your mortgage and auto payments just bounced, so we're going to tack on some overdraft fees too. Have a nice day.

In Canada the account holder is not liable for fraudulent transactions, whether it is credit or debit... a benefit of our highly regulated banks.


Actually, disputed transactions are usually refunded immediately on those too.


A few years ago TD Bank Canada changed its TD Bank branded debit cards to a Visa branded debit cards it wasn't before that just an Interac logo no Visa affiliation. I don't know why TD Bank did it but it's now linked to Visa and it seemed rather sudden.

I wonder if that means my TD Bank Visa brand debit card won't work or if it's only Visa credit cards?


TD Canada Trust Access cards use Interac for in-person sales in Canada and Visa Debit for on-line and international sales.


Well, it can be used as a credit card for online purchases. You can also use Interac Online with it for Canadian online merchants, which there are relatively few of.


Is this only for VISA credit cards, or would debit cards with the VISA logo also be affected?


Canadian visa debits are still interac cards, and most retailers in Canada have their machines set up to only allow treating them as such (because fees). This is actually a bit annoying when the interac network is down, but not the credit card network.


> It's just Walmart annoying their customers to try to prove some point to Visa.

What? It's very, very clear that this is about fees.


What distinction are you drawing to the debit cards that banks in the US issue with the visa or MasterCard logo?


It isn't affiliated with visa or mastercard at all. It is called interac. It is not a special debit card, it is just your normal bank card.


In fact, they are in competition, Interac is trying to keep things like Visa Debit out if the country.

My bank card now is both an Interac card and a Visa Debit card. But the Visa Debit part work anywhere except online US retailers.


Remove "visa" and "mastercard" from the comment I made and the question still stands.


Remove "visa" and "mastercard" and I still answered your question. It is not through credit card payment processing.


In some countries, there exist electronic payment processing networks other than Visa/Mastercard.


And those countries include the United States. No idea why that's relevant.


I'm not sure what extremely pedantic point you're trying to make.

The relevance of the parent you responded to is that a Canadian shop not accepting Visa (or Mastercard) is only a very mild inconvenience because there are other widely used payment networks.


I'm not sure what got so complicated about this question, but I was wondering what the person initially responded to here was talking about:

in Canada (actually, pretty much everywhere but America)

since the systems sound pretty identical.


I don't see what you're not understanding. If you live in America, then surely you are aware that Visa + Mastercard are overwhelmingly dominant as payment networks, yes?

Obviously Discover, Amex and Diner's Club exist, but they are barely worth mentioning. Hardly anyone (proportionally) carries those cards, and only a few merchants accept them.

In the United States, for a merchant to refuse Visa would be suicidal. In Canada, it's almost a non-issue because all the debit cards are processed on another, non-Visa network.

What of the above do you disagree with?




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